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16 October 2008 @ 01:59 pm
SPN Question #2  
My previous question was in another post. This question, however, is based on the premise/part of the blurb describing next week's episode, so if you consider that spoilery don't click. Something about it has been nagging at me and I wanted to discuss with anyone interested.

Please be careful with spoilers in the comments. I really only want to discuss this aspect.



The official description for next week's episode seems to imply that if Dean dies of the sickness he will go back to Hell. When I read this, I got very excited. I was already invested in the premise of the episode to begin with, but this made it even better.

I went out to the fandom to see some spec and to see if anyone was as excited as I was. I was surprised to find most people were livid at the possibility Dean could go back to Hell upon death.

I don't quite understand the sentiment. At this point in time, we don't know if Dean's contract is still in effect. Castiel pulled Dean out of Hell. We haven't been told whether that act was a deal breaker or just a temporary fix. The way logic is working in my mind is that Dean was pulled out and is therefore "stolen property." He never was able to break the contract. If he dies, it would make sense it would go straight back to Hell. Even in Mystery Spot, when he "died" before his year was up, it was implied in the Sam/Trickster sequences that Dean went to Hell. We don't know if that was true or not, but if it was, his year wasn't even up at that point and he still went to Hell because of the deal.

But I have seen other spec on this that could also work. If Dean is suffering from panic and fear in this episode, he could think he was going back to Hell. That fear would be very real. He could come to believe that if he dies he will go back to Hell and that could be his worst fear. So that makes sense too.

But as much as the second option is plausible and interesting, I will be disappointed if it happens. I think there is much more drama and tension in the first option.

But I don't know. I feel very alone LOL

Am I the only one that hopes that upon death Dean would go back to Hell? I don't mean permanently for the series, but it adds more to this season, imo. If Sam and Dean have that constant threat hnaging over their heads, they will have to be more careful. Sam might be more tempted to use his powers to protect Dean or stop Dean from dying. They would also want to find some way to permanently break the deal. Sam could have even more focus on going after Lilith. There are a lot of possibilities. There would be that constant real threat over them. Plus, it would mean that the angel pulls Dean out of Hell wasn't a quick and tiddy fix. And it would give more weight to the angels using him for their purposes.

I'm not going to have a mental breakdown or outrage if it doesn't happen. I just feel like I'm the only one intrigued by the idea. Everyone I've seen is cursing Kripke out for the possibility and are livid.
 
 
Current Mood: thoughtfulthinky
 
 
 
lizardbeth: Castiel - angellizardbeth_j on October 16th, 2008 06:51 pm (UTC)
*stands over there with you* :) Now, I will say that I am not as invested as some fans, so y'know, that may have something to do with it. But I think it would've been fair to spin it either way: (1) Dean's removal broke the contract by divine fiat (what many fans believe, I guess, from what you're saying), or (2) Dean's contract is only in temporary abeyance because of divine intervention. IIRC, the contract was "resurrect Sam, one year of life, and Hell FOREVER." So it makes sense that getting pulled out wouldn't necessarily break it. After all, if there's free will in the SPN-verse, then people also have to accept the consequences of their (bad, dumb) choices.

And narratively, yes, it makes more sense to keep that threat hanging over them, rather than letting Dean's slate be wiped clean. Because then they both want something.

Gotta say the idea of Dean getting killed on some routine hunt and Castiel having troop back down to Hell and pull him out AGAIN, is kind of funny to me. I'm possibly not taking this seriously enough. ;)
Working for the Mandroid: Castielmoonshayde on October 16th, 2008 07:00 pm (UTC)
Some fans are going ballistic. I'm fairly invested in this show, but you know I'm not going to have a fit if I don't get my way ;) I think the writing on this show is top notch and I am rarely disappointed.

But darn it, I want my way here LOL It's just a good fit for the show as far as I'm concerned. i can definitely see both sceanrios playing out, but I think the first has more drama to it.

I love the free will concept on this show, so I would like the contract to stand, if they are going to break the contract, I want to see them work at it - not just some quick fix. I don't know. i just find the story richer if they chose that option. if they don't, I'll be disappinted at the missed opportunities but I'll carry on. I'm just shocked that all of the places I've gone to read some spec on this issue there is violent rejection against it. i think it's awesome!

Gotta say the idea of Dean getting killed on some routine hunt and Castiel having troop back down to Hell and pull him out AGAIN, is kind of funny to me. I'm possibly not taking this seriously enough. ;)

I have this image of a long suffering Castiel sighing everytime he has to do it ;)
lizardbeth: Castiel - angellizardbeth_j on October 16th, 2008 07:22 pm (UTC)
I can see the logic in the complaint that we already saw this plotline last year. But I don't mind a continuing threat when it makes sense -- it's not like they're retreading it because they can't think of anything else; it's a consequence of what happened before.

But any complaints that it's a cheat or whatever, strike me as fannish Teh Crazy - mistaking personal fanon for what was actually on there. Castiel never said Dean wasn't going back when the work was done; quite the opposite, he said Dean was brought out for a specific task. Now, maybe if he completes that task, he may be spared, but that was never promised.

In fact, I can see a situation in which Dean finds out the contract is still in effect and he, thinking he was safe like many fangirls, is gonna be all bitter and 'thanks for nothing' then. Some have speculated that the season isn't going to end up the brothers against each other, but together against everyone else -- finding out he's not safe could start that crack between Dean and heaven.... dunno, but it cdertainly has possibilities which being safe does not.

Which is a long winded way of saying... yes.
Working for the Mandroid: crossroadsmoonshayde on October 17th, 2008 02:05 am (UTC)
See, all of that? That would be awesome :)

But sadly, I think we are like 2 of 5 people who seems to want that and I doubt we'll get it LOL
     Mandya_phoenixdragon on October 16th, 2008 07:16 pm (UTC)
Haven't read this post - but I did stop by to give you a *smish*
Library Alterna-Chick ;): Deanjedishadowolf on October 16th, 2008 09:38 pm (UTC)
dude, icon love! <3
     Mandy: Parlay?a_phoenixdragon on October 17th, 2008 02:33 am (UTC)
Hee!! The love is mutual!! *Licks your icon*

You'd be amazed how many Twilight fans get a kick out of it, too, lol!!

*Smishes*
Liv: kara-superlion_x3 on October 16th, 2008 07:43 pm (UTC)
so this has nothing to do with your post(although I did read it and I agree with you. Dean going back to Hell would be good for the series.) but...

is there some place where you post your Supernatural icons or any of your icons for that matter? I love them. :) And I will give you credit :D
Working for the Mandroid: Clark Heat Visionmoonshayde on October 16th, 2008 11:48 pm (UTC)
I post my icons under the fan art tag on my sidebar. :)
Library Alterna-Chick ;): Deanjedishadowolf on October 16th, 2008 09:41 pm (UTC)
I can easily see going back to hell being Dean's greatest fear at this point...no, second greatest fear. Sam getting his evil on is still his greatest fear in my mind. But going back would not be a happy thing. Yet I don't remember the crossroads demon saying anything about him being in hell for all eternity, so in my way of thinking the contract's been paid. He went to hell, he's suffered - Casteil got him out with the big get out of jail card, he shouldn't have to worry about it.

Now I could be incorrect in what the deal was, but seems to me Dean really shouldn't have to worry about this. No matter how they play it so long as I get to watch Sam and Dean I'll be happy. They'll do a top notch story no matter what and that's what makes this show so dang cool!
Working for the Mandroid: Deanmoonshayde on October 16th, 2008 11:39 pm (UTC)
Yeah I'm just waiting for clarification from the series whether he is set to go back or not. Right now, for me, it seems it could go either way. I still think if his contract is in tact it would make for better drama, but if they don't go that route the storyarc will still be awesome. I trust the show enough for it.
Courtney: supernatural beats other fandomslouisiane_fille on October 16th, 2008 10:31 pm (UTC)
See, I kinda think Castiel taking him out of hell broke the deal. I mean, pulled him out to do God's work? I seriously doubt God would let him go back to Hell when he does (eventually) die.

I mean, papa Winchester made a deal, and he escaped from Hell when the boys opened the Devil's Gate at the end of Season 2. He didn't go back to Hell. In the latest issue of Supernatural magazine, Sera Gamble says John "went on to a better place". (I'm paraphrasing, but still!) John got out and his deal was still in effect, basically.

So I would think the same thing applies to Dean. He got out, they can't take him back. If they could, surely the Hellhounds would have already tried?
Working for the Mandroid: crossroadsmoonshayde on October 16th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC)
We haven't had confirmation yet whether Castiel pulling him out broke the deal. Though, I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

And I'm not saying that they would actively take him back. If Dean is out, he's out. Hellhounds wouldn't come after him. What I cam curious about is when he dies, does that mean he goes back? If his contract is in tact, then I would say yes. If it's not, then he doesn't have to worry about it.

I still think it would be awesome if it was still in tact and that the good side was a bit on the shady side by taking him and using him. Doesn't mean he can't be redeemed from that choice in the end or find a way out of it, but it would make for some interesting conflict and tension :)

But if the deal is null and void and the Hell thing is just a fear of his, I'm sure that will be handled well too.
Gem Vakarian: dean and rubygembat on October 16th, 2008 11:41 pm (UTC)
I haven't read much about the episode, but I won't be surprised if they don't deal with this topic at all in it. Of course, this is from not knowing anything about what happens in the episode, just from reading a few different descriptions, so... take that as you will?

And anyways, if his contract was in effect forever (and we're still believing Ruby's intel), wouldn't that mean that when people went to hell and became demons, they would be required to stay there forever? I think this is part of the reason John got to stay out when he left: the details of the contract are that you get sent to hell. If you can claw your way out, great, you're free until someone either sends you back (as a demon), or you move on to magical purgatory land or heaven (if you're a spirit). These are my deep thoughts; I'll be fine with it if it goes either way, I just think Dean's contract has been fulfilled. *shrug*
Working for the Mandroid: Driftmoonshayde on October 16th, 2008 11:47 pm (UTC)
Well, the people vs demons depends on how long you're in Hell, if we're believing Ruby. So the longer you're in Hell, the more of your humanity is burned away. Obviously, Hell isn't all that well guarded or we wouldn't have so many demons running about LOL And that before the Gate was opened.

So I'm not saying people stay in Hell forever. I mean John got out. What I am saying is that based on the description of this episode that CW released, I'm in favor of his contract in tact or that if he dies he could go back to Hell. Who knows. It might even just be a consequence of that episode only. I don't know enough about it.

I'd prefer that for storytelling reasons because I think it would really up the angst. But if they don't go with that angle, while I'll be a little disappointed, I wouldn't be having a fit over it ;)