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08 July 2009 @ 10:59 am
I just thought of something...  
Because I am slow and get too distracted by the pretty on Supernatural...

Okay, so they established in On the Head of a Pin that only angels can kill angels. Since Lucifer is technically an angel, how can Dean kill him? Unless "stop" doesn't mean kill. I've only seen the finale once so my mind is foggy. (And my personal opinion is that Dean won't "stop" him anyway and maybe Lucifer will just be cast away/rebound. I dunno. Unless he really wants zombie!Paradise. Maybe Lucifer be defeated some other way.)

Let's assume it means kill. I don't subscribe to the theory Dean is an angel (and I don't want him to be either.) Does that mean someone like Castiel would have to do it? But if an angel does it, that sort of negates the fact Dean is supposed to do it. Unless Dean will eventually get possessed by an angel (which I don't think he could anyway) and seems like cheating.

Or maybe Lucifer doesn't quite qualify as an angel anymore.

I don't know. I'm sure Sam will factor into everything. I'm just wondering if I missed something. I haven't been super attentive this year. I'm just thoughtful this morning. What do you think?
Current Mood: thoughtfulthoughtful
Gem Vakariangembat on July 8th, 2009 03:23 pm (UTC)
Maybe it's a misunderstanding like that "No man can kill me" Witchking thing in LotR. Yeah that's all I've got so far. XD
Working for the Mandroid: Bring Itmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 05:54 pm (UTC)
It could be. I'm sure we'll find out. Should be an interesting season!
lizardbeth: Dean and Castiel animatedlizardbeth_j on July 8th, 2009 05:01 pm (UTC)
I agree that I don't think "stop" has to mean kill - it might also just mean cast back down and put the seals back.

But then I think of things like Ruby's knife and the rather overwhelming St Michael and St George imagery in the Green Room, and I wonder if it really does mean kill/vanquish with some kind of weapon. Say he finds Michael's Sword, or the Holy Lance, or some kind of artifact like that, it could protect Dean and kill Lucifer. The problem of course would be to get close enough -- Sam and Castiel could both help, but unless they're powered up, I don't see how they can hold what is basically an archangel. So I dunno.

Working for the Mandroid: Cas and Dean (Fishing)moonshayde on July 8th, 2009 05:56 pm (UTC)
I don't know. I'm sure something else will come up that hasn't been introduced yet. I mean, they know they have to stop Lucifer, but at the same time I don't think Sam and Dean are all ready to bring on Paradise on the angels' terms. So I figure something will come into play to save humanity. Right now they seem stuck between a rock and hard place.

But it's a question that popped into my head this morning and made me wonder.
settykins108 on July 8th, 2009 05:12 pm (UTC)
I think Dean's gonna get possessed this season. I mean, they wouldn't have shown us that episode (cas/jimmy) if it wasn't going to play a role in the next season. yeah, it could be cheating, but ... you never know what kripke and the others have up their sleeves.
Working for the Mandroid: Dean Rebelmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
Well, the problem I have from a canon standpoint with the idea of Dean possessed is that Castiel seemed to imply he was really normal. Jimmy, on the other hand, had the ability to hold Castiel. Dean couldn't see or hear his true nature like Jimmy could.

But if Kripke wants to do it, he'll find a way.
settykins108 on July 9th, 2009 05:19 am (UTC)
Oh yeahh...I hadn't thought of that. =/

True, Kripke will find a way.
Prehumous Professor of Morbid Bibliomancyblpurdom on July 8th, 2009 05:40 pm (UTC)
Castiel is possessing a human body in a similar way to a demon, like Ruby, possesses a human body. So if Dean becomes possessed by an angel and that angel disposes of Lucifer he has been offed both by an angel and, in a very real way, by Dean, too.
Working for the Mandroid: Cas and Dean (Fishing)moonshayde on July 8th, 2009 05:50 pm (UTC)
The only reason why I don't think Dean can get possessed is because Jimmy was special somehow whereas Castiel was surprised that Dean couldn't interact with him (the way he did with Jimmy.) I took that to mean Dean wasn't special in any way and couldn't be a vessell for an angel even if he wanted to.

Maybe if they keep with the Micheal/Lucifer imagery Micheal will possess him and archangels might be able to override that sort of thing. Maybe they have different rules. No clue.

I'm sure if Kripke goes that route he'll come up with someone. I'm just going by what we have in canon so far that I can remember.

So if Dean becomes possessed by an angel and that angel disposes of Lucifer he has been offed both by an angel and, in a very real way, by Dean, too.

Yeah, that is why I think it's cheating LOL
Nervous, Messed-Up Marionette: are you theresuperbadgirl on July 8th, 2009 06:52 pm (UTC)
No one's ever said Dean's supposed to stop Lucifer himself. He's tasked with stopping the apocalypse - by any means.
Working for the Mandroid: Across Realmsmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
I'm horrible at remembering dialogue, but I recall they implied it pretty heavily. Even if it's a mislead, it's being strongly hinted that Dean has to stop Lucifer.

Now, there could be a zillion ways it could happen and I have no doubt Sam and Castiel and wheoever else will be a big part of it.

I just am stuck on the whole angel kill angel thing if "stop" is indeed kill. Like I said, stop could mean a whole bunch of different things, but if it's kill then that really doesn't have anything to do with Dean at this time. So I was wondering I'd missed something.
Nervous, Messed-Up Marionette: dark samsuperbadgirl on July 8th, 2009 07:05 pm (UTC)
It's been awhile since I've seen it, so you could be right. I just don't remember anyone ever saying Dean had to kill Lucifer to stop the apocalypse. I'm not sure folks like Zachariah even want that outcome - they just want to enjoy the show for awhile.

And I still think they haven't provided sufficient evidence ruling Dean out as a potential host. Or Sam, for that matter. My bigger concern at this point is they're going to have Lucifer hop into one of them.
Working for the Mandroid: Guys with Gunsmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC)
I know! I am so afraid for Sam and Dean. Lucifer is coming and he's right there. Run!

But even if he does possess one of them (and if they go that route my money's on Sam) I doubt it would be for very long. But who knows.
(Deleted comment)
Working for the Mandroid: Detective Castielmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 10:17 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I didn't know if Luciver's fall puts him into another category. I mean he's the devil and all. But he still was an angel so I guess we'll see which rules apply to him.

I'm so excited for S5!
MegTDJ: SPN - Sam Dean boys are backmeg_tdj on July 8th, 2009 08:44 pm (UTC)
And yet, in Are You There God, Castiel said several angels had "fallen in battle," which seemed to indicate that they'd been killed by something other than an angel. Unless that was Uriel, too. But you'd think that if "the only thing that can kill an angel is another angel" is true, Cas would have known that in the first place, so maybe Uriel was just being the egotistical jerk we all know he was. ;)

But yeah, I doubt the show will kill off the devil, you know? Probably just lock him away again or cast him into the lake of fire.
Working for the Mandroid: Carside SamDeanmoonshayde on July 8th, 2009 10:16 pm (UTC)
Yeah I know. That part always puzzles me. I was like angels are dying? Cool! And then On the Head of a Pin airs and I was like, huh? Uriel must be really busy then...

But Uriel had a bunch of renegades with him right? Maybe there was a lot of angel on angel violence. Maybe we'll see or hear more of it in S5. I think that would be cool.

But even Alastair seemed to believe that angels couldn't be killed. At least not by demons. He knew he couldn't kill Castiel but he could at least send him to Heaven.

I tend to think of Castiel as a lower angel that is out of the loop of just about everything. Maybe he didn't know right away? He's like the poor dude that does everyone's hard labor.

My best guess about Lucifer is that they won't kill him and will try to lock him up again. The angels are partying while God is away, so this doesn't look like God's master plan anyway. And if the bros do defeat and "stop" Lucifer the way the angels want, then the world as we know it ends and the angels get to "rule" over a blissful, but vapid kind of world.

There's got to be some middle ground or other option to preserve humanity. At least I hope. Because that'll be awesome :)
Jean: SPN: Dean: With Holy Biblecontrary_lady on July 8th, 2009 10:36 pm (UTC)
Perhaps Lucifer is no longer considered an Angel? I mean, after the fall, and being in hell, I'm sure he's had to have changed considerably.
     Mandya_phoenixdragon on July 9th, 2009 07:35 pm (UTC)
Hmmm...I'm thinking that might try to use Dean as a vessel for Michael (hence Cas' confusion on Dean not being able to 'hear him' or 'see him' properly)...exciting idea, methinks!

*hugs you*